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Experts Debate: The Economy-Environment Relationship

May 27, 1992

RECENTLY World Media writer Jean Chichizola met for a discussion of development and the environment with Charles Carlisle, assistant to the director-general of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade; Nitin Desai, assistant to the secretary-general of the United Nations Conference on Environment and Development; and Gilles Schneider, secretary-general of the Club of Rome. The following are edited excerpts of that discussion:

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Q: How do you define the idea of "sustainable development"?

Desai: I think there are three elements: one, a system of production which is capable of being continued without running aground for a lack of resources; second, responsibility in that those that produce are responsible for the consequences of their production; and third, and this often does not receive enough attention, a widening of options for poor households and poor countries.

Schneider: I feel quite embarrassed by this idea of "sustainable development" and to be clear, I am very much against it. This may be jargon for specialists, but certainly not for people at large. The role of the public is very important: No government will be able to act in the field of environment without public support.

Desai: But that is not a justification for rejecting the underlying idea. We need to get away from a situation where we think that development is doing one set of things, developing forests in one particular way, developing land in a particular way, and environmental management comes in afterwards to take care of the problems.

Carlisle: For me this idea of "sustainable development" is not a fad. I think it is possible to have economic development and to preserve and, ideally, enhance the environment. Modern technology will permit us to do that. The sad fact is that the great mass of the world's population lives in poverty. The world simply has to develop. There has to be economic progress if for no other reason but to take care of these people.

Q: What could "sustainable development" be in terms of concrete actions ?

Desai: Up to now, we have tended to focus a lot on production increases when we spoke about agriculture. This was typically the economic planners' approach. On the other hand you had the ecologist, who was focusing attention largely on the resources: the land, the water. But what got lost in both perceptions was people: the fact that the land is cultivated by farmers, that forest dwellers live in forests, that fisherman use waterways. We have to change the way we approach development, we have to move awa y from things to people.

Carlisle: You have to put prices on environmental resources. In the past we have treated them as free; the air is free, the water is free. Well, we cannot do this anymore.

Schneider: An example of what the real priorities of the environment are today is the greenhouse effect. It is striking that the present American administration has been refusing and not accepting the things that have been suggested by European countries and others. The United States is the country which has probably produced the most important part of the greenhouse effect.

Carlisle: I agree that we are not doing enough. But at least in some respects, and not just in the United States, we have been carrying out a significant degree of economic development at the same time that in a number of ways we have been improving the environment.

Q: Isn't it too late to think about gradual reform rather than radical measures ?

Desai: How can you stop deforestation on a global basis? It is a mistake to think that there is a quick fix. There is no substitute for the business of building up a way of sharing responsibility.

Schneider: It probably has to come both from the grass roots and institutions. Institutions are bureaucracies which have the disadvantage of slowing down change. We can maybe make them more effective by decentralizing.

Q: Is the protection of the environment for developed countries a way not to protect the environment, but their way of life and their markets ?

Carlisle: It is certainly true that industrial countries do protect their markets.... But I don't think this is directly related to environmental protection.